Question:

: : : Another point that is very important to remember when making plum wine is that : : : plums have a high level of pectin and are liable to become hazy and syrupy if y : : : ou do not add some pectolase or pectolaziac enzyme. I have found that out from : : : bitter experience. : : : Mat92065  TIM B. : : I have another suggestion to offer, based on a good deal of experience with : : fruit wines. I allow 48 to 72 hours soaking in the "mashing" water, with 50 : : to 60 PPM sulphite, then strain out the solids and ferment the dilute juice : : without skins, stones etc. This will avoid the bitterness the alcohol will : : extract from the stones and will much reduce the tannins in the finished : : wine. This will result in a wine you can drink in a few months to a year : : without heroic attempts to age it. Generally speaking one wants non-grape : : wines to be light and fruity and available SOON. : Do you add the sugar and pectolase before or after the soaking period? *** Pectic enzymes before; sugar, acid adjustment and nutrient after.: — :  | NAME   Christopher Sawtell                                            | :  | SNAIL  215 Ollivier’s Road, Linwood, Christchurch, 8001. New Zealand. | —       Dick Simpson      |             Tel. – (604) 263-1301                         |              "eschew obfuscation"  

Response:

: I am an experienced brewer, but I’ve never made wine.  I have a yellow : plum tree that produces a lot of fruit and I thought I’d make some plum : wine this year.  I’ve read the FAQ and the Making Simple Fermented : Beverages document. : : My plan is to mash the fruit and adjust the OG to 1.090 (22.5 Brix?). : Add camden (sp?) tablets, wait 24 hours, pitch Pasteur Champagne yeast : and let it go. : : I have a few questions: : : Do I need yeast nutrients for plum wine?  I have diammonium phosphate and : can make a yeast extract. : : I don’t know about the nutritional content of plums per se, especially : yellow ones, but I can comment on nutrients in general. : : I know grapes only, but a certain amount of this must cross over to : plums (caveat emptor).  The nutritional component of fruit that is : useful to yeasts is amino acids (in grapes, it’s largely argenine); : the yeasts do not use proteases outside of their bodies to chop down : polypeptides, so those are not available to them.  Riper grapes and : grapes infected with molds and other microorganisms are more likely to : have nutritional deficiencies and require supplementation. : : Yeasts preferentially will take up ammonium as a source of nitrogen. : However, it is beneficial for them to take in amino acids.  They can : only take amino acids during their growth phase (first 72 hours or : so), as the transport enzymes are no longer made after that. : : Therefore, if you are going to supplement with nitrogen, it is best to : use all or mostly yeast extract, hulls, etc. at the onset of : fermentation (or during the first day or so, timing’s not so important : here) and then subsequent additions should be DAP only, as the amino : nitrogen is only going to feed competitive organisms. : : How much sulphite to add?  Isn’t suphite dissociation from metabisulfite : pH dependent?  The FAQ seems to imply that this isn’t true.  Does the : amount of free sulphite desired really depend on pH as stated in the FAQ? : FWIW these plums usually have a pretty good dose of yeast/mold on them. : : Sulfite is inhibitory against acetobacter, lactobacillus, : polyphenoloxidase enzyme, and some yeasts.  This leaves other spoilage : yeasts and laccase enzyme (produced by mold) untouched.  I just : mention that so you know it’s not a panacea.  Usually 20 to 50 ppm : depending on the condition of the fruit is normal.  (0 is also normal, : but not if the fruit’s in bad shape.)  This is in grape juice, of : course, which is typically in the low- mid-3 pH range. : : Sulfite dissociation is completely pH dependent.  SO2, or "molecular," : is the most useful of the species in the equilibrium.  Sulfite has : some activity as well. : : Free sulfur and bound sulfur are not pH dependent; bound refers : to sulfur which has been bound to another substance, such as : acetaldehyde or anthocyanins, and is no longer active.  The free : fraction is then divided into the three species in the equilibrium. : : The main concerns stemming from high mold are (a) enzymatic oxidation : due to laccases; this is tricky because laccases are not inhibited by : reasonable quantities of SO2, they attack more substrates than : polyphenoloxidase, and they can survive into the wine, as they are not : inhibited by alcohol either (b) free amino nitogen depletion (c) : formation of glucans by the molds, which can cause clarity and : filtration problems (cured with enzymes, if you want) (d) formation of : acetic acid, or octanoic/decanoic acids which can be inhibitive to yeast. : : Any other caveats for a beginning vintner? : : If you ask questions like that, you may get really long answers from : me. : : Good luck! : : Tamiko : Another point that is very important to remember when making plum wine is that : plums have a high level of pectin and are liable to become hazy and syrupy if y : ou do not add some pectolase or pectolaziac enzyme. I have found that out from : bitter experience. : Mat92065  TIM B. I have another suggestion to offer, based on a good deal of experience with fruit wines. I allow 48 to 72 hours soaking in the "mashing" water, with 50 to 60 PPM sulphite, then strain out the solids and ferment the dilute juice without skins, stones etc. This will avoid the bitterness the alcohol will extract from the stones and will much reduce the tannins in the finished wine. This will result in a wine you can drink in a few months to a year without heroic attempts to age it. Generally speaking one wants non-grape wines to be light and fruity and available SOON. Good luck       Dick Simpson      |             Tel. – (604) 263-1301                         |              "eschew obfuscation"  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am an experienced brewer, but I’ve never made wine.  I have a yellow plum tree that produces a lot of fruit and I thought I’d make some plum wine this year.  I’ve read the FAQ and the Making Simple Fermented Beverages document. My plan is to mash the fruit and adjust the OG to 1.090 (22.5 Brix?). Add camden (sp?) tablets, wait 24 hours, pitch Pasteur Champagne yeast and let it go. I have a few questions: Do I need yeast nutrients for plum wine?  I have diammonium phosphate and can make a yeast extract. I don’t know about the nutritional content of plums per se, especially yellow ones, but I can comment on nutrients in general. I know grapes only, but a certain amount of this must cross over to plums (caveat emptor).  The nutritional component of fruit that is useful to yeasts is amino acids (in grapes, it’s largely argenine); the yeasts do not use proteases outside of their bodies to chop down polypeptides, so those are not available to them.  Riper grapes and grapes infected with molds and other microorganisms are more likely to have nutritional deficiencies and require supplementation. Yeasts preferentially will take up ammonium as a source of nitrogen. However, it is beneficial for them to take in amino acids.  They can only take amino acids during their growth phase (first 72 hours or so), as the transport enzymes are no longer made after that. Therefore, if you are going to supplement with nitrogen, it is best to use all or mostly yeast extract, hulls, etc. at the onset of fermentation (or during the first day or so, timing’s not so important here) and then subsequent additions should be DAP only, as the amino nitrogen is only going to feed competitive organisms. How much sulphite to add?  Isn’t suphite dissociation from metabisulfite pH dependent?  The FAQ seems to imply that this isn’t true.  Does the amount of free sulphite desired really depend on pH as stated in the FAQ? FWIW these plums usually have a pretty good dose of yeast/mold on them. Sulfite is inhibitory against acetobacter, lactobacillus, polyphenoloxidase enzyme, and some yeasts.  This leaves other spoilage yeasts and laccase enzyme (produced by mold) untouched.  I just mention that so you know it’s not a panacea.  Usually 20 to 50 ppm depending on the condition of the fruit is normal.  (0 is also normal, but not if the fruit’s in bad shape.)  This is in grape juice, of course, which is typically in the low- mid-3 pH range. Sulfite dissociation is completely pH dependent.  SO2, or "molecular," is the most useful of the species in the equilibrium.  Sulfite has some activity as well. Free sulfur and bound sulfur are not pH dependent; bound refers to sulfur which has been bound to another substance, such as acetaldehyde or anthocyanins, and is no longer active.  The free fraction is then divided into the three species in the equilibrium. The main concerns stemming from high mold are (a) enzymatic oxidation due to laccases; this is tricky because laccases are not inhibited by reasonable quantities of SO2, they attack more substrates than polyphenoloxidase, and they can survive into the wine, as they are not inhibited by alcohol either (b) free amino nitogen depletion (c) formation of glucans by the molds, which can cause clarity and filtration problems (cured with enzymes, if you want) (d) formation of acetic acid, or octanoic/decanoic acids which can be inhibitive to yeast. Any other caveats for a beginning vintner? If you ask questions like that, you may get really long answers from me. Good luck! Tamiko

Another point that is very important to remember when making plum wine is that plums have a high level of pectin and are liable to become hazy and syrupy if y ou do not add some pectolase or pectolaziac enzyme. I have found that out from bitter experience. Mat92065  TIM B.

Response:

[...] | Do I need yeast nutrients for plum wine?  I have diammonium phosphate and | can make a yeast extract. How do you make yeast extract?  Is this something that will keep well? | How much sulphite to add?  Isn’t suphite dissociation from metabisulfite | pH dependent?  The FAQ seems to imply that this isn’t true.  Does the | amount of free sulphite desired really depend on pH as stated in the FAQ? | FWIW these plums usually have a pretty good dose of yeast/mold on them. I pasteurize the fruit at 175F for 20 minutes or so and haven’t had any problems yet, even without adding sulfite.  You might want to try that in addition.  Be sure not to go much higher or the pectin may set and it’ll never clear. —  Rick Johns                              |God, I love huge cylinders of gas.|

Response:

I am an experienced brewer, but I’ve never made wine.  I have a yellow plum tree that produces a lot of fruit and I thought I’d make some plum wine this year.  I’ve read the FAQ and the Making Simple Fermented Beverages document. My plan is to mash the fruit and adjust the OG to 1.090 (22.5 Brix?). Add camden (sp?) tablets, wait 24 hours, pitch Pasteur Champagne yeast and let it go.   I have a few questions: Do I need yeast nutrients for plum wine?  I have diammonium phosphate and can make a yeast extract.

I don’t know about the nutritional content of plums per se, especially yellow ones, but I can comment on nutrients in general. I know grapes only, but a certain amount of this must cross over to plums (caveat emptor).  The nutritional component of fruit that is useful to yeasts is amino acids (in grapes, it’s largely argenine); the yeasts do not use proteases outside of their bodies to chop down polypeptides, so those are not available to them.  Riper grapes and grapes infected with molds and other microorganisms are more likely to have nutritional deficiencies and require supplementation. Yeasts preferentially will take up ammonium as a source of nitrogen. However, it is beneficial for them to take in amino acids.  They can only take amino acids during their growth phase (first 72 hours or so), as the transport enzymes are no longer made after that. Therefore, if you are going to supplement with nitrogen, it is best to use all or mostly yeast extract, hulls, etc. at the onset of fermentation (or during the first day or so, timing’s not so important here) and then subsequent additions should be DAP only, as the amino nitrogen is only going to feed competitive organisms. How much sulphite to add?  Isn’t suphite dissociation from metabisulfite pH dependent?  The FAQ seems to imply that this isn’t true.  Does the amount of free sulphite desired really depend on pH as stated in the FAQ? FWIW these plums usually have a pretty good dose of yeast/mold on them.

Sulfite is inhibitory against acetobacter, lactobacillus, polyphenoloxidase enzyme, and some yeasts.  This leaves other spoilage yeasts and laccase enzyme (produced by mold) untouched.  I just mention that so you know it’s not a panacea.  Usually 20 to 50 ppm depending on the condition of the fruit is normal.  (0 is also normal, but not if the fruit’s in bad shape.)  This is in grape juice, of course, which is typically in the low- mid-3 pH range. Sulfite dissociation is completely pH dependent.  SO2, or "molecular," is the most useful of the species in the equilibrium.  Sulfite has some activity as well. Free sulfur and bound sulfur are not pH dependent; bound refers to sulfur which has been bound to another substance, such as acetaldehyde or anthocyanins, and is no longer active.  The free fraction is then divided into the three species in the equilibrium. The main concerns stemming from high mold are (a) enzymatic oxidation due to laccases; this is tricky because laccases are not inhibited by reasonable quantities of SO2, they attack more substrates than polyphenoloxidase, and they can survive into the wine, as they are not inhibited by alcohol either (b) free amino nitogen depletion (c) formation of glucans by the molds, which can cause clarity and filtration problems (cured with enzymes, if you want) (d) formation of acetic acid, or octanoic/decanoic acids which can be inhibitive to yeast. Any other caveats for a beginning vintner?

If you ask questions like that, you may get really long answers from me. Good luck! Tamiko

Response:

I am an experienced brewer, but I’ve never made wine.  I have a yellow plum tree that produces a lot of fruit and I thought I’d make some plum wine this year.  I’ve read the FAQ and the Making Simple Fermented Beverages document. My plan is to mash the fruit and adjust the OG to 1.090 (22.5 Brix?). Add camden (sp?) tablets, wait 24 hours, pitch Pasteur Champagne yeast and let it go.   I have a few questions: Do I need yeast nutrients for plum wine?  I have diammonium phosphate and can make a yeast extract. How much sulphite to add?  Isn’t suphite dissociation from metabisulfite pH dependent?  The FAQ seems to imply that this isn’t true.  Does the amount of free sulphite desired really depend on pH as stated in the FAQ? FWIW these plums usually have a pretty good dose of yeast/mold on them. Any other caveats for a beginning vintner? Jeremy Bergsman

Response: