Dissociation or Distraction?

Dissociation Talk » Dissociation » Dissociation or Distraction?

Question:

Dear Phinny I think you are doing well just seeing and being aware of what is happening to you, My sister is never around in her mind when I try to talk to her. And it happens to me too, but not that often, I dicipline myself to listen, not to dissapere, I force myself to stay, It is very difficult but with a lot of training It has worked for me. It is so safe to walk into the fog but not very nice for others to be around. ( there I go again, trying to please) For me I started to train myself to be aware, when I took a walk, I said to myself: look at the trees, feel the smell, be here take it in. I know it is hard, but if we do it often enough that will be a pattern too. But a big nothing can be peaceful I use to close my eys and go into big darkness, and that is a place I could stay for ever.. *hugs* Bluebell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I am dealing with people, in person, especially if they are someone I don’t know, I find my mind wandering in the extreme. It’s like I’m fading in and out of consciousness, one second aware of what someone is trying to communicate to me, and the next second lost in my head. I’m aware of my physically being there but staying mentally connected to the other person and the supposed communication going on is like listening to a radio station that’s tuning in and out by itself. It’s like my mind is elsewhere but I don’t know where it is. Sometimes I don’t know what else I’m thinking about, just a big Nothing, sometimes I’m thinking of specific fantasies or images come up or I follow some line of inner dialogue that is unrelated to what’s going on between me and the person. It’s like this wall goes up between me and them and I can’t understand what they’re saying. Then I become scared that they are going to catch on to the fact that my mind is elsewhere and I become very anxious. This combination of extreme distraction and anxiety is distressful to me. When I’m experiencing that ’radio station tuning in and out’ effect or when someone’s speaking directly to me and I don’t understand a word they are saying, I wonder if I am dissociating in these moments as a form of self-protection. Only rarely do I not feel this way with people. I only feel this way in person. This reaction, this lapse of attention on my part and the anxiety it brings is a big part of why I isolate myself and am scared to get a job. This set of responses is extremely distressful to me and I want to avoid it if at all possible. I want to ask, is this pathological? Does it sound like I’m dissociating? Or perhaps I’m just distracted and my concentration just low from meds or the depression I’m always going through? Perhaps I am too focused on my distraction, but is that not a form of dissociation, to be hyperfocused on distortions? The other thing I’m doing is staring off into space for several minutes at a time, usually when I’m alone, after taking a bath or after parking my car. I feel I’m turning into a zombie sometimes. -=-pn

Response:

Hi Phinny, All sorts of thoughts are coming to mind in response to your post. I’ll try to put them in some kind of order. First, a conversation has all kinds of ramifications that can lead your attention in lots of directions. It sounds like your attention often gets led inside you, and you lose track of which track the other person expects you to be following. Does this seem accurate to you? Further, once you feel you’ve lost track of what they’re saying, you lack ways to get back on track. Instead you go back inside your head and think about the situation. Is this how it seems to you? There’s another thing that’s just a guess, but it makes sense to me and I’d like your opinion about it. I wonder if often you have no clear idea of what you want out of a conversation. That would make it pretty hard to judge whether you were getting what you wanted or not, so it would be hard to know if you were on track. For example, I’m a computer programmer. Suppose I need a client to decide whether she wants rectangular buttons or oval buttons in the program. As we talk, I can judge how things are going by asking myself, "Do I know what kind of buttons to use yet?", "Is this leading us toward a decision?", "What other elements are needed to get this decision?". If I miss other things that are going on, it’s not critical, but if I can’t answer these questions myself, then I need to ask the other person, so we can synch up. If I don’t have questions like this to ask myself, I may fall back on less useful ones, like, "Is she thinking I’m totally out of it?" Am I losing you here, Phinny? My purpose is to: 1) find out what actually happens when you "fade in and out", 2) to imagine ways this might be altered to be more satisfying to you, 3) and to express those ideas clearly to you so you can test them if you wish. By golly! Here’s one of those ideas now! *** Check a lot *** I’m mentioning this one because it’s a safe bet even if I don’t know much about what’s going on yet. As the other person is talking, it helps if you’re checking frequently to see that you’re understanding what they’re saying. Not by asking yourself, but by asking them. When I do it, it helps keep me out there with them, not getting lost in my head. And it lets me get back on track sooner, if I’m drifting off. So before I drift off into my imaginings of how dealing with people may be for you, I will await your response. pong

Response:

HI. It has been very intresting to read all of what you have been writing in this post. I have a little something I would like to add. My sister is the same as me, but in this matter about dissapering in conversation, she is worse then I If the conversation is not about her and her feelings, she is gone, that is just the way it is. We can sit around the kitchen table talking about pratical things, and everytime, I have to say…HI sis,,, come back to earth.. Look at me… I am here…We use to laugh about it sometimes, but I know she will just be with us for a few moments, then she will be lost again. So I got this trick to get her out of it..I say, Sis, how are you feeling? what is on your mind… Then she seems to wake up and start talk, and I use to tell her that it would be nice for me if she could stay around for a while to listen to me too. Sometimes I make jokes.. stand up infront of her and makes funny faces, or pretend to faint and fall all over her.. We are so alike, my sister and me, but I do think I have learned more then her about staying in this now. Bluebell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, so practicing things that bring you *back out* would be good. Don’t forget, you said: "This reaction, this lapse of attention on my part and the anxiety it brings is a big part of why I isolate myself and am scared to get a job. This set of responses is extremely distressful to me and I want to avoid it if at all possible." It sounds like this is important to you and worth practicing. It’s probably a matter trading one coping mechanism for another, usually the way I cope is just to isolate myself and avoid the situation altogether. Remember what Bluebell said: "I dicipline myself to listen, not to dissapere, I force myself to stay, It is very difficult but with a lot of training It has worked for me." This is encouraging. Further, once you feel you’ve lost track of what they’re saying, you lack ways to get back on track. Instead you go back inside your head and think about the situation. Is this how it seems to you? Yes Getting back on track is possible. But the thing to do is to practice when the stakes are small, not when it’s a really big deal. That’s a good point! There’s another thing that’s just a guess, but it makes sense to me and I’d like your opinion about it. I wonder if often you have no clear idea of what you want out of a conversation. That would make it pretty hard to judge whether you were getting what you wanted or not, so it would be hard to know if you were on track. It’s hard to think back specifically but this seems right. It seems I just want to be left alone and would rather not be having the conversation. Especially if it’s a social thing, if someone is just chatting with me I don’t really know what my role is or why I am having the conversation and would like to get it over with as soon as possible. Here’s something that may never have occurred to you. When you’re chatting socially, you get to make up a reason for the conversation! There is no special reason so you can make up any harmless goal and pursue it for your amusement. Trying to make someone laugh is kind of fun sometimes. Picking out someone who seems uncomfortable and trying to help them become comfortable is a great one — you have so much in common already! Or it might be too to get information on some aspect of their work or approach to things I usually can’t think that clearly when I’m talking to someone. I understand that. Have you ever seen the Red Green show? There’s this fake game show section of the show, where the contestant tries to get the other guy to say the secret word, without mentioning the word out loud. Like if the word is "feelings", he has to think of something that will make the other guy say that. A game like that, or "charades", would be great practice for you. The goal of the "conversation" is really clear, and you have to keep trying things to reach that goal. Charades is especially good because you don’t have to say anything. I’ll bet that’s REAL appealing to you, huh? If not, you could move down a species or two and teach a dog or a bird a trick. Anything that requires you to elicit some desired response from a fellow creature, by trying things and noticing if they’re working. Wouldn’t you like to be able to do that? Playing with my sister’s cats is therapeutic in that way, there’s a definite communication going on. If I don’t have questions like this to ask myself, I may fall back on less useful ones, like, "Is she thinking I’m totally out of it?" I feel I’m a weak person, because I keep falling back on the ‘less useful’ questions. I realize they are less useful but I can’t help myself. It’s like there’s something inside of me that wants to ensure that I’m sick and wants to destroy me. You do run this pattern remarkably well, Phinny. <g What I’m suggesting is that you can practice running other patterns, too. Then, if someday you *want* to play a good round of beat up Phinny, you can still do it, but you won’t be stuck with one lousy game day after day. Yes its a game I play with myself a lot Am I losing you here, Phinny? My purpose is to: 1) find out what actually happens when you "fade in and out", I’m a). self destructive and will go right to dysfunctional thought patterns to make myself sick b). afraid I will be found out to be a crazy or terrible person and want to retreat inside of my head c.) too habituated to be focused on my own inner thoughts than what’s outside of me Thank you. I’m pretty sure you’ve got b) and c) nailed. Maybe a) is right, too, but it feels to me like you may be taking credit for more intentionality than is really there. Maybe you just don’t know how to do any better. Or maybe I do but am just out of practice This is a good idea but sometimes when I’m really inwardly focused I can’t even focus on their response and I become afraid that if I keep ‘checking’ then they will discover I’m having these problems. This is very difficult like on a job. Yeah, it is certainly a challenge on the job, until you have enough confidence to look stupid now and then. When it’s not such a tight situation, like with an acquaintance, and you find you can’t even focus on their response, you can say something like, "I’m really out to lunch today. You want to shoot some pool?" In other words, do something physical, external, where you can talk or not and it doesn’t matter. Then you can slow down and get comfortable together, which may make talking easier, and, if not, at least you had a game of pool. What I’m suggesting is that you could practice being around people and talking, while doing something that keeps bringing you out, and makes it safe for you because no one is going to think you’re crazy or terrible. A bit distracted, maybe, but the world is full of distracted people. Getting togeter with my two best friends is like that. They know I’m distracted but they dont reject me because of it. I guess you could say that’s what friends are for. Thank you so much for taking the time to write down all these insights! They have been very helpful!

Response:

Hey Phinny, Look around among the ’s. I’ll probably respond in there someplace.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Phinny, All sorts of thoughts are coming to mind in response to your post. I’ll try to put them in some kind of order. First, a conversation has all kinds of ramifications that can lead your attention in lots of directions. It sounds like your attention often gets led inside you, and you lose track of which track the other person expects you to be following. Does this seem accurate to you? Yes, this has been happening to one extent or another since I was a kid.

Yeah, so practicing things that bring you *back out* would be good. Don’t forget, you said: "This reaction, this lapse of attention on my part and the anxiety it brings is a big part of why I isolate myself and am scared to get a job. This set of responses is extremely distressful to me and I want to avoid it if at all possible." It sounds like this is important to you and worth practicing. Remember what Bluebell said: "I dicipline myself to listen, not to dissapere, I force myself to stay, It is very difficult but with a lot of training It has worked for me." Further, once you feel you’ve lost track of what they’re saying, you lack ways to get back on track. Instead you go back inside your head and think about the situation. Is this how it seems to you? Yes

Getting back on track is possible. But the thing to do is to practice when the stakes are small, not when it’s a really big deal. There’s another thing that’s just a guess, but it makes sense to me and I’d like your opinion about it. I wonder if often you have no clear idea of what you want out of a conversation. That would make it pretty hard to judge whether you were getting what you wanted or not, so it would be hard to know if you were on track. It’s hard to think back specifically but this seems right. It seems I just want to be left alone and would rather not be having the conversation. Especially if it’s a social thing, if someone is just chatting with me I don’t really know what my role is or why I am having the conversation and would like to get it over with as soon as possible.

Here’s something that may never have occurred to you. When you’re chatting socially, you get to make up a reason for the conversation! There is no special reason so you can make up any harmless goal and pursue it for your amusement. Trying to make someone laugh is kind of fun sometimes. Picking out someone who seems uncomfortable and trying to help them become comfortable is a great one — you have so much in common already! If it’s instructional like in a classroom I realize that i’m there to get information about such and such but I fade back and forth between my own inner thoughts and what they’re saying to me.

Gotta admit, I’m not so great in classrooms, myself, unless I have something active to do. For example, I’m a computer programmer. Suppose I need a client to decide whether she wants rectangular buttons or oval buttons in the program. As we talk, I can judge how things are going by asking myself, "Do I know what kind of buttons to use yet?", "Is this leading us toward a decision?", "What other elements are needed to get this decision?". If I miss other things that are going on, it’s not critical, but if I can’t answer these questions myself, then I need to ask the other person, so we can synch up. I usually can’t think that clearly when I’m talking to someone.

I understand that. Have you ever seen the Red Green show? There’s this fake game show section of the show, where the contestant tries to get the other guy to say the secret word, without mentioning the word out loud. Like if the word is "feelings", he has to think of something that will make the other guy say that. A game like that, or "charades", would be great practice for you. The goal of the "conversation" is really clear, and you have to keep trying things to reach that goal. Charades is especially good because you don’t have to say anything. I’ll bet that’s REAL appealing to you, huh? If not, you could move down a species or two and teach a dog or a bird a trick. Anything that requires you to elicit some desired response from a fellow creature, by trying things and noticing if they’re working. Wouldn’t you like to be able to do that? If I don’t have questions like this to ask myself, I may fall back on less useful ones, like, "Is she thinking I’m totally out of it?" I feel I’m a weak person, because I keep falling back on the ‘less useful’ questions. I realize they are less useful but I can’t help myself. It’s like there’s something inside of me that wants to ensure that I’m sick and wants to destroy me.

You do run this pattern remarkably well, Phinny. <g What I’m suggesting is that you can practice running other patterns, too. Then, if someday you *want* to play a good round of beat up Phinny, you can still do it, but you won’t be stuck with one lousy game day after day. Am I losing you here, Phinny? My purpose is to: 1) find out what actually happens when you "fade in and out", I’m a). self destructive and will go right to dysfunctional thought patterns to make myself sick b). afraid I will be found out to be a crazy or terrible person and want to retreat inside of my head c.) too habituated to be focused on my own inner thoughts than what’s outside of me

Thank you. I’m pretty sure you’ve got b) and c) nailed. Maybe a) is right, too, but it feels to me like you may be taking credit for more intentionality than is really there. Maybe you just don’t know how to do any better. 2) to imagine ways this might be altered to be more satisfying to you I don’t know, it’s hard for me to imagine them because I hate myself and want to destroy myself

Yes! I’ve found this, too. When I’m feeling bad, it is very hard to find any thoughts that are from a different emotional place. I like what John Crowley said in one of his books (was it LITTLE, BIG or ENGINE SUMMER?). "In winter, spring is a rumor, not to be believed." Sometimes I have to get up and do something fun to change my mood enough so I can entertain lighter thoughts. I understand that you’re talking about something more extreme, but the point is, you want to stop fading in and out when you’re talking with people, and you have to start from where you are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 3) and to express those ideas clearly to you so you can test them if you wish. By golly! Here’s one of those ideas now! *** Check a lot *** I’m mentioning this one because it’s a safe bet even if I don’t know much about what’s going on yet. As the other person is talking, it helps if you’re checking frequently to see that you’re understanding what they’re saying. Not by asking yourself, but by asking them. When I do it, it helps keep me out there with them, not getting lost in my head. And it lets me get back on track sooner, if I’m drifting off. This is a good idea but sometimes when I’m really inwardly focused I can’t even focus on their response and I become afraid that if I keep ‘checking’ then they will discover I’m having these problems. This is very difficult like on a job.

Yeah, it is certainly a challenge on the job, until you have enough confidence to look stupid now and then. When it’s not such a tight situation, like with an acquaintance, and you find you can’t even focus on their response, you can say something like, "I’m really out to lunch today. You want to shoot some pool?" In other words, do something physical, external, where you can talk or not and it doesn’t matter. Then you can slow down and get comfortable together, which may make talking easier, and, if not, at least you had a game of pool. What I’m suggesting is that you could practice being around people and talking, while doing something that keeps bringing you out, and makes it safe for you because no one is going to think you’re crazy or terrible. A bit distracted, maybe, but the world is full of distracted people. pong

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