Dissociation Talk

Question:

Hello all – I’m new to this group and arrived here through the route of researching dissociative symptoms on the web. I am 58, with type II diabetes controlled through medication (Glucophage) and exercise. I had a stroke a few years ago that left me with left hemisensory syndrome (alteration of sensation on left side of body) and was prescribed Accupril to control blood pressure. Recently the Accupril stopped working for me, and my doc switched me to Diovan, which didn’t help. He then added Toprol XL and Thiazide, which immediately brought my blood pressure under control; however, symptoms of dissociation (tunnel vision, numbness in hands/fingers, "outside of body" sensation, sensitivity to light/sound, feeling of floating, etc.), which I have experienced mildly and fleetingly from time to time since my stroke, have become almost constant and much stronger. I am not depressed, have suffered no trauma or stress, and am not experiencing any psychological problems; however, the constant mental fog is beginning to bother me. I am following up with my doc, of course, but was wondering if anybody in the group is aware of Diovan, Toprol, or Thiazide causing or exacerbating symptoms of dissociation. Thanks! Dave

Response:

Yikes.  Just writing to say how much I empathize w/all the physical struggles.  I know others here will, too.  I have no experience w/any of those meds (except Gluc. which isn’t the one in question), so I can’t offer any help there.  Empathy also for being tired of mental fog.  Wish we could help there, too.  Anyhow, you sound like you are working hard to stay of good cheer through all of this – and for that I commend your bravery. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all – I’m new to this group and arrived here through the route of researching dissociative symptoms on the web. I am 58, with type II diabetes controlled through medication (Glucophage) and exercise. I had a stroke a few years ago that left me with left hemisensory syndrome (alteration of sensation on left side of body) and was prescribed Accupril to control blood pressure. Recently the Accupril stopped working for me, and my doc switched me to Diovan, which didn’t help. He then added Toprol XL and Thiazide, which immediately brought my blood pressure under control; however, symptoms of dissociation (tunnel vision, numbness in hands/fingers, "outside of body" sensation, sensitivity to light/sound, feeling of floating, etc.), which I have experienced mildly and fleetingly from time to time since my stroke, have become almost constant and much stronger. I am not depressed, have suffered no trauma or stress, and am not experiencing any psychological problems; however, the constant mental fog is beginning to bother me. I am following up with my doc, of course, but was wondering if anybody in the group is aware of Diovan, Toprol, or Thiazide causing or exacerbating symptoms of dissociation. Thanks! Dave

Response:

however, symptoms of dissociation (tunnel vision, numbness in hands/fingers, "outside of body" sensation, sensitivity to light/sound, feeling of floating, etc.), which I have experienced mildly and fleetingly from time to time since my stroke, have become almost constant and much stronger. I’m really happy you posted though because I experience those same symptoms and I’ve told Drs about it over and over again and also told them I think there must be a physical cause to some of it and not just emotional. The symptoms you listed above are the *exact* ones I’ve been looking for a physical cause to. *Exactly* what you describe above.

Me too.  Those are the -exact- feelings (plus a strong feeling of unreality) I’ve dealt with for nearly 30 years, and after going around and around with various doctors (including neurologists and psychiatrists), I resigned myself to the idea that it was, as the docs insisted, all "in my head."  I never really BOUGHT into that, but just gave up trying to pursue any other cause, since it was clear that no one was listening…

Response:

Thanks for your thoughts. I check frequently and find that my dissoc symptoms don’t appear to be associated either with high or low b sugar or b pressure levels. The mystery continues… Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Oh – what you say made me realize that it might be prudent to look into bl**d glucose, too – when diabetics go "low" their thinking and affective states go bonkers, and dissociative experiences could occur during those times. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. however, symptoms of dissociation (tunnel vision, numbness in hands/fingers, "outside of body" sensation, sensitivity to light/sound, feeling of floating, etc.), which I have experienced mildly and fleetingly from time to time since my stroke, have become almost constant and much stronger. I am not depressed, have suffered no trauma or stress, and am not experiencing any psychological problems; however, the constant mental fog is beginning to bother me. I’m afraid I don’t know anything about how medications may exacerbate these symptoms but if they started with your taking the meds, I think that’s a good place to start (as you’re already doing). I’m really happy you posted though because I experience those same symptoms and I’ve told Drs about it over and over again and also told them I think there must be a physical cause to some of it and not just emotional. The symptoms you listed above are the *exact* ones I’ve been looking for a physical cause to. *Exactly* what you describe above. I’m not an any meds that could induce these. As a matter of fact, in my case, thyroid medicine (which is the only med I’m on) actually helps these symtoms. Still, your post and the specific onset of your symptoms without any apparent psychological trauma has encouraged me to look a little further into a potential physical or neurological cause for some of these symptoms in my case. Thank you for posting. I hope you can find the answers you’re looking for and can resolve this ASAP. By the way, I’d get back to the Dr’s office sooner rather than later and insist he re-adjust your meds immediately. -Just my opinion. Melissa PS: Hmmmmm… you know what? In re-reading your post again… is it possible your symptoms are being caused by the drop in your blood pressure? Try taking your blood pressure when you get these sensations and compare it to your blood pressure at other times. Also see if you notice a pattern between when these symptoms tend to occur in relation to when you take your meds or when you eat or exercise. Maybe it’s dropping too low sometimes or maybe, even if it’s not to low it could be fluctuating from a higher "acceptable" pressure to a lower *still* "acceptable" pressure, but the drop may be happening too quickly and *that* may be what your experiencing. Again, best of luck. "X-No-Archive: yes" is automatically included in the headers of all of my posts. (you may not see it if your preferences aren’t set to "show all headers" but it’s there!) Please write X-No-Archive: yes as the first line of any post replying to one of my posts. Thank You.

Response:

Question:

Hello astri, Changing titles bc the other thread was started by Mischa’s Chaos and I have yet to respond to their post and I don’t feel comfy carrying on this conversation there. Hope you’re ok with that.

that’s fine, but the point of what I wrote was *not* to get into an involved conversation about int*gration with you. Cya below. Warning: Lots of mentions of int*gration below.

most of them snipped. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello e, [...] Excuse me for asking the obvious here, but if you’ve never permitted, allowed, had tears surrounding one’s abuse how do you know that it wouldn’t help you to have them, e? (Slight detour from my otherwise respectful position to not comment on your personal life – apologies if my Q is too… well, too whatever you feel like labeling it). [...] if you’ve never permitted, allowed or tried int*gr*tion, how do you know that it wouldn’t help you to do it? I think the analogy is perfectly parallel. [...] And you saw fit to ask me what you did thinking bc I asked her what I did, I didn’t understand her position. Ok. Fwiw, I do understand.

I understand that you think you understand her position.  I *know* I understand her position, because she’s *told* me I do.  from what I see of what you have written to her and the conversations you have been in with her, it appears to me that you don’t actually have an accurate understanding of her position.  at least, what you say doesn’t portray such an understanding. [...] Let me see if I can simplify my beliefs with the smallest amount of words possible… I believe it is possible for a singular persona to develop in one body. I also believe it is possible for multiple personas to develop in one body. Both are natural and normal courses of human development with one seemingly more common in occurence than the other. I believe it is possible for dissociation to play a role in fragmenting the experience of an otherwise whole persona (DI/DID). I don’t believe trauma is necessarily nor always the catalyst to multiplicity nor to DD’s. I believe human beings are capable of experiencing a wide range and depth of emotion. I support ppl leaving themself open to possibilities … to changes in their reality.

but e believes that it is not necessary to experience a wide range and depth of emotion in order to be a fully functional human being.  e believes that some human beings are *incapable* of experiencing the wide range of emotions that you are talking about.  what you are saying to e about emotions and the human experience would be comparable to someone saying to you that your theory about multiplicity vs dissociation is wrong and that you must be mistaken about your own experience, that you are deceiving yourself and you really are dissociative, and that you should consider leaving yourself open to possibilities…to changes in your reality (fwiw, I am *not*not*not* saying to you here that you are wrong about dissociation vs multiplicity; I’m not addressing that issue *at* *all* –I am drawing the analogy back to the point of what I was trying to say in my initial reply). [...] I think you misunderstood the intent of my response above. You asked me -how- would I know integration wouldn’t help if I hadn’t tried it and my longwinded answer was, I know it wouldn’t help bc integration is for a condition I do not have

[...] I think you misunderstood the intent of my initial response.  you asked e how she would know crying wouldn’t help if she hadn’t tried it, apparently assuming that it would be within her repertoire of behaviors if she were just open enough to it. [...] "alternate" is certainly one way to look at this. It wasn’t what I was necessarily thinking when I suggested to J/c to be open to the -possibility- that the reality J/c possesses now may not be the same one in the days and years to come. What I was thinking was along the lines of ‘who knows, ppl change and so can their reality, leave yourself open to that possibility."

I suggest you apply here an analogy regarding someone saying the same thing to you.  doesn’t apply to you, does it?  then why should it apply to e or J/c regarding a "condition" they have repeatedly stated doesn’t apply to them? [...] I just think the analogy was ‘off’ and difficult to agree with bc I don’t have the condition for which integration applies and e and J/c do with re: to being human and feelings.

not according to their analysis.  your insistence that it does apply to them is equivalent to someone insisting to you that you *do* have the condition for which integration applies. [...] *all* the arguments you use to talk about multiplicity vs dissociation Not an argument, just my pov and understanding.  :o)

the term "argument" used in the sense of a stated position or postulate, not in the sense of an interpersonal disagreement. [...] — astri

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation Sent: June 15, 2001 8:54 PM Hello astri, <vast enormous snippage [...] I just think the analogy was ‘off’ and difficult to agree with bc I don’t have the condition for which integration applies and e and J/c do with re: to being human and feelings. not according to their analysis.  your insistence that it does apply to them is equivalent to someone insisting to you that you *do* have the condition for which integration applies. Like telling someone who is albino to try to produce more skin pigmentation, telling a non-bat rodent to fly since bats do. I saw something about a neurochemical cause of depersonalization. DID’s are thought to have an altered brain chemistry that goes back to "normal" at least according to one source on healing , not sure how they defined healing… I wonder if the FAQ speaks to questioning someone else’s reality.  Maybe if it doesn’t, it should. Instead of telling people how they feel or don’t or think or don’t or have a self or don’t, hear them out and try to understand. Surely people with DID understand how invalidating all that questioning is. How can any not understand, given the current mood in society?  Give the FM* Invalidating is invalidating. (not a good thing) Todoeoeoeoeoe — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

Question:

er, since I am back to posting this one time, I have a question for the real experts–does anyone know of a good inpatient DID/dissociation facility (or trauma facility where they know what they are doing re DID/dissociation) for adolescents? Pref on the east coast. Thanks!

Response:

Just because I seem childish doesn’t mean I am an adolecent.  :o) Sorry esue, wish I could help?  I am not sure where Trill went, but sounds like it might be worth checking into.  She seems to be doing okay there. Safari

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – er, since I am back to posting this one time, I have a question for the real experts–does anyone know of a good inpatient DID/dissociation facility (or trauma facility where they know what they are doing re DID/dissociation) for adolescents? Pref on the east coast. Thanks!

Response:

thank you for taking the time to write, william – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation You may want to contact Sheppard Pratt in Baltimore. They have a wide range of specialized programmes and services for adolescents (and children). Two of the leading lights of dissociation are associated with their "tr**ma disorders" programs. The Tr**ma Dis***ers Conference was held there in 1999, and featured speakers ranging from Cheit to Putnam. I believe that the author of "The Dissociative Child" is still with Sheppard Pratt [Joyanna Silberg]. They have: – a tr**ma dis***ers unit -adolescent crisis stabilization units – child/adolescent respite unit -adolescent day h***ital – tr**ma dis***ers day h***ital They also have an excellent email/info request page: http://www.sheppardpratt.org/sp_htmlcode/sp_locations/sp_emailform.cfm as part of an excellent, well-maintained web site: http://www.sheppardpratt.org Also an 800 number for information: 1-800-627-0330 er, since I am back to posting this one time, I have a question for the real experts–does anyone know of a good inpatient DID/dissociation facility (or trauma facility where they know what they are doing re DID/dissociation) for adolescents? Pref on the east coast. Thanks!

Response:

You may want to contact Sheppard Pratt in Baltimore. They have a wide range of specialized programmes and services for adolescents (and children). Two of the leading lights of dissociation are associated with their "tr**ma disorders" programs. The Tr**ma Dis***ers Conference was held there in 1999, and featured speakers ranging from Cheit to Putnam. I believe that the author of "The Dissociative Child" is still with Sheppard Pratt [Joyanna Silberg]. They have: – a tr**ma dis***ers unit -adolescent crisis stabilization units – child/adolescent respite unit -adolescent day h***ital – tr**ma dis***ers day h***ital They also have an excellent email/info request page: http://www.sheppardpratt.org/sp_htmlcode/sp_locations/sp_emailform.cfm as part of an excellent, well-maintained web site: http://www.sheppardpratt.org Also an 800 number for information: 1-800-627-0330

  er, since I am back to posting this one time, I have a question for the real   experts–does anyone know of a good inpatient DID/dissociation facility (or   trauma facility where they know what they are doing re DID/dissociation) for   adolescents? Pref on the east coast. Thanks!

Response:

no, silly, this question wasn’t directed only at you–i was saying hi because it was a "PS"! have you forgotten? <sigh Boy, out of sight.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation Just because I seem childish doesn’t mean I am an adolecent.  :o) Sorry esue, wish I could help?  I am not sure where Trill went, but sounds like it might be worth checking into.  She seems to be doing okay there. Safari er, since I am back to posting this one time, I have a question for the real experts–does anyone know of a good inpatient DID/dissociation facility (or trauma facility where they know what they are doing re DID/dissociation) for adolescents? Pref on the east coast. Thanks!

Response:

PS to my PS, has anyone had any experience with or heard of a place called "Kidspeace" in Penna? Apparently they do a wonderful job–of PR!!!–and everyone knows about them and refers to them but no one has had any personal experience of them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: EarthLink Inc. — http://www.EarthLink.net Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation er, since I am back to posting this one time, I have a question for the real experts–does anyone know of a good inpatient DID/dissociation facility (or trauma facility where they know what they are doing re DID/dissociation) for adolescents? Pref on the east coast. Thanks!

Response:

Question:

dear trill,    I would add: Nurses are experts on mental illness–right up there with psychologists with phds. Multiple personality doesn’t exist, but you are the exception—so don’t ever let anyone else out. We will solve your DID by calling you by one name and not "re-enforcing it. All patients have bipolar disorder and will be forced to take medicine for it. You will be kept on the nasty ward until you let them dose you up. DID is not solved by antipsychotics, yes, but we will concoct a reason to feed you resperdol. Group "therapy" is based on letting everyone share a pity party . God help you if you say something helpful–then you are threatening the leader.Don’t talk too much about yourself even it is costing you $1000 a day.How dare you be so selfish.Just because your life has fallen apart, you have tried to kill yourself etc., is no reason to not be a good party person. (Ever notice that Group "therapy" feels like you are on Jenny Jones?" People in severe trouble who have checked into a hospital care so much about strangers problems that they should help each other in group therapy. Pictonary and kindergarden crafts are healing to brilliant people with serious depth issues. Aftercare is : send you back to what sent you here with a weeks worth of pills. Hospitals suck. NOW THAT IS THE TRUTH.            penny

Response:

Hey Anthony, et al     Haven’t seen your nick around before.  Graphic nick, we like it.     Keep posting, this was good to hear . . .     Yous peaked our curiosity.  Want to share what it was you and t-friend saw?  We’d like to remain open-minded too. malf LindaDD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hospitals do suck.  We used to be on that other side of the desk.  We hope that we did our best to be compassionate, etc. as we could, having to work under, what we saw then as…pretty Stupid….but see now as totally demeaning, power-over, "we (staff) know it all and you don’t",plain  BS. It is so ingrained in psych hospitals, and  so many psych practioners, docs, therapists.  In the news today you read how they are discovering how to beat lightspeed.  When the h*ll are they going to work on changing and shifting philosophies around treatment of any of the MI’s?  Sorry, about the rant… it just fits in with a recent experience… Months ago We had a flashback…. worked on it in therapy… could not totally name what we were seeing…heard same-old same-old…screen memory.. didn’t happen…yadda yadda.  Even a friend (who is also a therapist) had same rhetoric (both are considered, and actually are really better therapists that most around here) for us.   This past weekend, we stumbled on to seeing in real life what it was that was in the flashback…. something We never knew existed, other than in the flashback, and not knowing what it was, couldn’t name it, had no terminology for it…therefore, "it must have been something else, not real, screen memory,etc" according to my T and friend.  Would like to write the old T and tell her, but it would probably be a waste of  time. However, we took our t-friend to see it…. she was amazed…she never knew such a thing existed either, which really reminded her to keep her mind open when listening to her clients and their memories.    Man… that turned out to be alot more than we thought… sorry for going so far off topic… guess the rant has been sitting around all week waiting for a chance to pop out. Thanks for Listening. Anthony et al. — <snip Hospitals suck. NOW THAT IS THE TRUTH.           penny And here’s one from my own personal experience. Mostly mililtary and VA psych hospitals. 4 stays with completely different dx’es each time. :- If you have a condition that the h*sp*tal does not have the resources to dx or treat, you will be dx’ed and treated for the closest matching disorder with which they are familiar. You will be expected to adjust your symptoms to match those of the assigned disorder so that you will benefit from your stay. -Jake- LOL. Sounds like therapy.  ;)  Probably more intense, though, bc you’re there 24/7. e PS  I enjoyed the posts in this thread. Thanks for sharing them. — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Hospitals suck. NOW THAT IS THE TRUTH.           penny And here’s one from my own personal experience. Mostly mililtary and VA psych hospitals. 4 stays with completely different dx’es each time.  :- If you have a condition that the h*sp*tal does not have the resources to dx or treat, you will be dx’ed and treated for the closest matching disorder with which they are familiar. You will be expected to adjust your symptoms to match those of the assigned disorder so that you will benefit from your stay. -Jake-

LOL. Sounds like therapy.  ;)  Probably more intense, though, bc you’re there 24/7. e PS  I enjoyed the posts in this thread. Thanks for sharing them. — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

Response:

verdad! trill Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Hospitals do suck.  We used to be on that other side of the desk.  We hope that we did our best to be compassionate, etc. as we could, having to work under, what we saw then as…pretty Stupid….but see now as totally demeaning, power-over, "we (staff) know it all and you don’t",plain  BS. It is so ingrained in psych hospitals, and  so many psych practioners, docs, therapists.  In the news today you read how they are discovering how to beat lightspeed.  When the h*ll are they going to work on changing and shifting philosophies around treatment of any of the MI’s?  Sorry, about the rant… it just fits in with a recent experience… Months ago We had a flashback…. worked on it in therapy… could not totally name what we were seeing…heard same-old same-old…screen memory.. didn’t happen…yadda yadda.  Even a friend (who is also a therapist) had same rhetoric (both are considered, and actually are really better therapists that most around here) for us.   This past weekend, we stumbled on to seeing in real life what it was that was in the flashback…. something We never knew existed, other than in the flashback, and not knowing what it was, couldn’t name it, had no terminology for it…therefore, "it must have been something else, not real, screen memory,etc" according to my T and friend.  Would like to write the old T and tell her, but it would probably be a waste of  time. However, we took our t-friend to see it…. she was amazed…she never knew such a thing existed either, which really reminded her to keep her mind open when listening to her clients and their memories.    Man… that turned out to be alot more than we thought… sorry for going so far off topic… guess the rant has been sitting around all week waiting for a chance to pop out. Thanks for Listening. Anthony et al. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Hospitals suck. NOW THAT IS THE TRUTH.           penny And here’s one from my own personal experience. Mostly mililtary and VA psych hospitals. 4 stays with completely different dx’es each time.  :- If you have a condition that the h*sp*tal does not have the resources to dx or treat, you will be dx’ed and treated for the closest matching disorder with which they are familiar. You will be expected to adjust your symptoms to match those of the assigned disorder so that you will benefit from your stay. -Jake- LOL. Sounds like therapy.  ;)  Probably more intense, though, bc you’re there 24/7. e PS  I enjoyed the posts in this thread. Thanks for sharing them. — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

Response:

dear anthony,   It is interesting that various engineers have been called crackpots for at least fifty years  by the physics community for publishing essentially the same theory that allowed the lightspeed exceeding experiments.     So even in science we have group bias.            best           penny I have lots of examples of what you mention about recovered memory. Today , I discovered in a book about nyc that the bookstore on the second floor of an elegant nyc hotel that I dream about did exist.    Also, that there is indeed a bridge between the bronx near yankee stadium and harlem. I once had a recovered memory of a trip on a donkey into the grand canyon and I knew this was impossible . That same weekend I saw a tv special about "the bronx grand canyon" at freedomland and was able to find—after that clue–a photograph. It is nice to see that someone else shares this experience. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hospitals do suck.  We used to be on that other side of the desk.  

That must be strange. We hope that we did our best to be compassionate, etc. as we could, having to work under, what we saw then as…pretty Stupid….but see now as totally demeaning, power-over, "we (staff) know it all and you don’t",plain  BS. It is so ingrained in psych hospitals, and  so many psych practioners, docs, therapists.  

Yes. That’s why it’s virtually impossible to maintain and continuously act on a belief that mh practitioners aren’t superior to clients. Strong contrary beliefs (and practices based thereon) are so pervasive and ingrained (and often unconscious) that it would be virtually impossible to function as a mental health professional if one truly acted on the belief that clients are in no way inferior. In the news today you read how they are discovering how to beat lightspeed.  When the h*ll are they going to work on changing and shifting philosophies around treatment of any of the MI’s?  Sorry, about the rant…

Don’t apologize. I like it. <s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -it just fits in with a recent experience… Months ago We had a flashback…. worked on it in therapy… could not totally name what we were seeing…heard same-old same-old…screen memory.. didn’t happen…yadda yadda.  Even a friend (who is also a therapist) had same rhetoric (both are considered, and actually are really better therapists that most around here) for us.   This past weekend, we stumbled on to seeing in real life what it was that was in the flashback…. something We never knew existed, other than in the flashback, and not knowing what it was, couldn’t name it, had no terminology for it…therefore, "it must have been something else, not real, screen memory,etc" according to my T and friend.  Would like to write the old T and tell her, but it would probably be a waste of  time. However, we took our t-friend to see it…. she was amazed…she never knew such a thing existed either, which really reminded her to keep her mind open when listening to her clients and their memories.    Man… that turned out to be alot more than we thought… sorry for going so far off topic… guess the rant has been sitting around all week waiting for a chance to pop out. Thanks for Listening. Anthony et al.

Glad you shared it.  :)  That is so cool that you found it. e — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

Response:

Hear, hear, Jake and Bernie.  Hang in there.  Appreciation comes in the oddest places, doesn’t it!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "And so the saying…                      Close enough for the G0vernment …. LOL!!! In a gov. job but doing it the right way every day… Thanks for being there, Bernie.  And to be fair, there were a number of caring and competent people in the system. I wouldn’t have gotten through it without them working with me behind the beauracracy.  :-) JAke The Spaghetti Junction page: http://www.angelfire.com/nv/jakobian/ (Last updated 15-JULY-2000) Our PGP Public Key is at: http://www.angelfire.com/nv/jakobian/pgp.html Just a plate of spaghetti with a bunch of meatballs rolling along, chasing it down highways sprinkled with a coat of grated parmesan… All roads lead to Spaghetti Junction – Meet’cha all there! ("X-No-Archive: yes" is observed in our headers)

Response:

this is the absolutely best thing I have ever seen!!! It would be funny if it weren’t so true. And IMO it is true of the entire profession of psychiatry. Like, last year’s "diagnosis of choice" was "bi-polar". Before that was "Borderline PD", and of course during the entire decade of the 90’s was depression. Now everyone (adults) is ADD. What do you think next year will be? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: … Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation <snip Hospitals suck. NOW THAT IS THE TRUTH. penny And here’s one from my own personal experience. Mostly mililtary and VA psych hospitals. 4 stays with completely different dx’es each time.  :- If you have a condition that the h*sp*tal does not have the resources to dx or treat, you will be dx’ed and treated for the closest matching disorder with which they are familiar. You will be expected to adjust your symptoms to match those of the assigned disorder so that you will benefit from your stay. -Jake- The Spaghetti Junction page: http://www.angelfire.com/nv/jakobian/ (Last updated 15-JULY-2000) Our PGP Public Key is at: http://www.angelfire.com/nv/jakobian/pgp.html Just a plate of spaghetti with a bunch of meatballs rolling along, chasing it down highways sprinkled with a coat of grated parmesan… All roads lead to Spaghetti Junction – Meet’cha all there! ("X-No-Archive: yes" is observed in our headers)

Response:

this is the absolutely best thing I have ever seen!!! It would be funny if it weren’t so true. And IMO it is true of the entire profession of psychiatry. Like, last year’s "diagnosis of choice" was "bi-polar". Before that was "Borderline PD", and of course during the entire decade of the 90’s was depression. Now everyone (adults) is ADD. What do you think next year will be?

I’m thinking  society is leaning toward anxiety related disorders. After all, they fit the requirements pretty well: you can have them and still go to work, there is meds that will ‘help’, they have some great side effects that explain your ‘problems’, they are general enough to fit most people’s symptoms… Rainbow Colors (Jill) —      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

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yeah, that’s a great guess. Let’s watch, shall we, and keep in touch about it? What do you win if yours is the winning guess? (Can you tell how much I love diagnosisisisis?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Tuells Homestead Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation this is the absolutely best thing I have ever seen!!! It would be funny if it weren’t so true. And IMO it is true of the entire profession of psychiatry. Like, last year’s "diagnosis of choice" was "bi-polar". Before that was "Borderline PD", and of course during the entire decade of the 90’s was depression. Now everyone (adults) is ADD. What do you think next year will be? I’m thinking  society is leaning toward anxiety related disorders. After all, they fit the requirements pretty well: you can have them and still go to work, there is meds that will ‘help’, they have some great side effects that explain your ‘problems’, they are general enough to fit most people’s symptoms… Rainbow Colors (Jill) — The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.

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I agree with the hospital situation. I have seen horrible things transpire there. I guess I have been lucky personally in that I have had no serious problems in the hospital. But then again: – I’ve usually been so depressed I stared at the wall all day   without moving. The staff seems to like that. – I haven’t done much switching in the hospital, mostly just   Katherine coming out for long periods and she lives to please   people and couldn’t care less what people call her. – I didn’t care if they called me bipolar. The medications I am   on are pretty similar to typical bipolar faire anyhow. – My T has priveleges at the hospital I use and she sees me   every other day or so while I am in hospital. She is also   quite willing to mislead the staff to get them to give me   what I need without telling them the real reason. – The head nurse on the day shift in the open ward actually   understands DID very well and is very friendly and has a good   sense of humor and intervenes frequently in situations between   DID patients and the rest of the staff. She is also quite   willing to bend the rules when they are getting in the way of   a patient getting better and especially if the rules are   harming a patient. – I stay in my room during the night shift because the night   shift head nurse goes by the book no matter how much harm is   done to patients and thinks DID is the opposite of "didn’t". I started this off to be a little sarcastic but after writing it I’ve realized I really am pretty lucky. Without the head nurse and her personal crusade to make things better for DID patients on her ward inspite of hospital policy, the hospital would be pretty bad. -Jen

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"And so the saying…                       Close enough for the G0vernment …. Solidarity, Bernie A Partner In a gov. job but doing it the right way every day…

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Hospitals do suck.  We used to be on that other side of the desk.  

That must be strange. We hope that we did our best to be compassionate, etc. as we could, having to work under, what we saw then as…pretty Stupid….but see now as totally demeaning, power-over, "we (staff) know it all and you don’t",plain  BS. It is so ingrained in psych hospitals, and  so many psych practioners, docs, therapists.  

Yes. That’s why it’s virtually impossible to maintain and continuously act on a belief that mh practitioners aren’t superior to clients. Strong contrary beliefs (and practices based thereon) are so pervasive and ingrained (and often unconscious) that it would be virtually impossible to function as a mental health professional if one truly acted on the belief that clients were in no way inferior. In the news today you read how they are discovering how to beat lightspeed.  When the h*ll are they going to work on changing and shifting philosophies around treatment of any of the MI’s?  Sorry, about the rant…

Don’t apologize. I like it. <s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -it just fits in with a recent experience… Months ago We had a flashback…. worked on it in therapy… could not totally name what we were seeing…heard same-old same-old…screen memory.. didn’t happen…yadda yadda.  Even a friend (who is also a therapist) had same rhetoric (both are considered, and actually are really better therapists that most around here) for us.   This past weekend, we stumbled on to seeing in real life what it was that was in the flashback…. something We never knew existed, other than in the flashback, and not knowing what it was, couldn’t name it, had no terminology for it…therefore, "it must have been something else, not real, screen memory,etc" according to my T and friend.  Would like to write the old T and tell her, but it would probably be a waste of  time. However, we took our t-friend to see it…. she was amazed…she never knew such a thing existed either, which really reminded her to keep her mind open when listening to her clients and their memories.    Man… that turned out to be alot more than we thought… sorry for going so far off topic… guess the rant has been sitting around all week waiting for a chance to pop out. Thanks for Listening.

Glad you shared it.  :)  That is so cool that you found it. e Anthony et al.

– For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

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Question:

Hi,      My head feels so crowded.  Everywhere i look there is a person, or a child behind me. No one believes me except my fiance.  I would appreciate any advise you could give me. noonie

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Hi,      My head feels so crowded.  Everywhere i look there is a person, or a child behind me. No one believes me except my fiance.  I would appreciate any advise you could give me. noonie

noonie, Well, you found the right place!  Welcome. My wife has had a crowded head, too.  And still does, though my impression is that a lot of them know each other better now and they are finding ways to get more out of the life. You’ll find lots of people here who are dealing in a practical day-by-day manner with situations that a lot of people would dismiss as delusions. You may find it helpful to search deja.com for forum: alt.support.dissociation author: embies keywords: repost to find some useful information that embies reposts from time to time. Glad you got here, pong

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Question:

Hello, want to share something. T appt. A new way of working, still confused about it. We worked with elements from bodytherapy (dont know if its the right word in english). We try to work it out that the switches dont "come over me", but that I can go to the others through this inside fog. T ask me to go just a little step to the fog and then to recognize what changes in body with this. I did it just for some seconds and was surprised, there were really changes, more tension in abdomen and forehead muscles and less breathing nearly stopping of breath. Then he ask me just to try to get more tension in forehead mucsles, I did and suddenly was in the fog and recognized that abdomen muscles and breath did the same as before. T ask me to do the contrary with the forehea muscles and I suddenly had to laugh. And I recognized that special body conditions belong to special affects. Then he asked me to first get more tension in the forehead muscles only for some seconds and only as long as I am not overwhelmed from the affects and then to make the contrary. I did it and it worked, I could end it in a second! Then we combined it with the breathing. The same procedure again. And then he ask me to get more tension into the forehead muscles and to breath just a little bit more, I went through the fog straight to L

Question:

Spoiler: 9 9 9 9 9 Carl Sagan’s new book, "the Demon Haunted World"  is a must read…a very important book.  Sagan’s finest work. Heed his warning of a demon haunted world and may he rest in peace. I wish you a world free of demons and full of light. Carl Sagan (1934-1996) Sagan’s book ends with this reminder: "If we can’t think for ourselves, if we’re unwilling to question authority, then we’re just putty in the hands of those in power. But if the citizens are educated and form their own opinions, then those in power work for us. In every country, we should be teaching our children the scientific method and the reasons for a Bill of Rights. With it comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit. In the demon-haunted world that we inhabit by virtue of being human, this may be all that stands between us and the enveloping darkness."

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Spoiler: 9 9 9 9 9 Carl Sagan’s new book, "the Demon Haunted World"  is a must read…a very important book.  Sagan’s finest work. Heed his warning of a demon haunted world and may he rest in peace. I wish you a world free of demons and full of light. Carl Sagan (1934-1996) Sagan’s book ends with this reminder: "If we can’t think for ourselves, if we’re unwilling to question authority, then we’re just putty in the hands of those in power. But if the citizens are educated and form their own opinions, then those in power work for us. In every country, we should be teaching our children the scientific method and the reasons for a Bill of Rights. With it comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit. In the demon-haunted world that we inhabit by virtue of being human, this may be all that stands between us and the enveloping darkness." — For more information about this service, send e-mail to: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

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> : Spoiler: > : 9 > : 9 > : 9 > : 9 > : 9

c,         If you could be more specific, as to what you claim is non scientific or "darkness", then we might have room for conversation.  The main thing, that comes to my mind, with your reply, is that you cannot just jump up and deny "my reality", which is extremely scientifically founded and documented.  There is, in my opinion, more proof of entity, than split-personality.  Both might exist.  Doing a web search, on related words, will bring up hundreds of thousands of posts which confirm my suspicions.  You cannot just jump up and "say" that hundreds of thousands are dilusional, and are not to be taken seriously.   Nor can you just pop up and say that only the split-theory is valid: There is no scientific evidence to dismiss the spiritual; none.  Even Dr. Barach called them entities.  He may have just been respecting my and others reality, as all doctors/therapists should (ethics).  My own doctor respects my suspicions/studies, very highly.           Sagan stated that spirituality deserves respect, but to be carefully sceptical.  I just wished that you would have been more specific, instead of feeding the frenzy, with blindly suggestive propaganda.  I have never tried to "scam" anyone, for my own profit, which is what I believe Sagan was referring to in his spiritual materials.  I am only trying to show people that other opinions exist, which may prove to point us in the correct direction, as far as a direct instantaneous cure.  I want and need healing, and my life back.  I read the book, in about 3 minutes. Sincere, Mike My Story: http://cust.iamerica.net/mcab/imc.htm Pope C the Anonymous wrote: > key (k…@c.net) wrote:

 : Carl Sagan’s new book, "the Demon Haunted World"  is a must read…a – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> : very important book.  Sagan’s finest work. > : Heed his warning of a demon haunted world and > : may he rest in peace. > You didn’t actually read the book, did you? > The book is about how foolish it is to believe in demons and the > supernatural, and how foolish superstitions are, and how sad it is that > people – like you – still feel a need to turn to supernatural and > religious answers for things that have scientific and rational > explanations. > (I’m not saying *I* always believe in the scientific method and in > rational explanations for everything in life, but Carl Sagan certainly > did, and that’s the message of his book.) > : "If we can’t think for ourselves, if we’re unwilling to question > : authority, then we’re just putty in the hands of those in power. But if > : the citizens are educated and form their own opinions, then those in > : power work for us. In every country, we should be teaching our children > : the scientific method and the reasons for a Bill of Rights. With it > : comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit. > Very well put: "the scientific method… decency, humility, and > community spirit." > I would say these are exactly what is lacking in most of the posts from > mikey and John Fitzsimmons and their ilk, and what most of the other > posters in alt.support.dissociation and the other groups they are > harassing have demonstrated, in their abundant patience and goodwill. > : "In the > : demon-haunted world that we inhabit by virtue of being human, this may > : be all that stands between us and the enveloping darkness." > Then, in rejecting science, humility, and decency, are you not sending > yourself into that darkness you so fear? > You choose the darkness you suffer in.  I urge you to choose more > wisely. >   — C > — >                          Pope C the Anonymous >                           popea…@lava.net >         "The things we lose a long time ago still haunt us." >                            – Allison Rose >  [mail me via anon-6...@anon.twwells.com to have your mail to me anonymized]

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On 23 Jul 1997 07:40:49 GMT, popea…@lava.net (Pope C the Anonymous) wrote: >key (k…@c.net) wrote: >: Spoiler: <snips> >You didn’t actually read the book, did you? >The book is about how foolish it is to believe in demons and the >supernatural, and how foolish superstitions are, and how sad it is that >people – like you – still feel a need to turn to supernatural and >religious answers for things that have scientific and rational >explanations.

I would not use words like "foolish" and "sad". Sagan does not denigrate peoples beliefs in this book. His message is only that those beliefs are purely subjective and can not be tested. The inability to test a belief in something therefore makes that belief ephemeral and untrustworthy, for want of a better way of putting it. Essentially belief works by accepting a viewpoint or paradigm with no supporting evidence. Science on the other hand takes the view of not accepting anything, I.E. disbelieving or skpeticism, until there is evidence that backs the claim. By evidence I am not talking about thousands of verbal accounts of similar events but something you can pick up, drop, feel, measure and test. A good scientist should also remember that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. So though there is no scientific proof of a soul, spirit, life after death and so on scince can not say these do not exist. Of course the majority of scientists do not believe in the supernatural or paranormal and it is a vocal minority that actively seeks to `debunk’ these things. Sagan also points out that excessive zeal in disproving non-scientific beliefs is as bad as the people who believe in the paranormal etc. >(I’m not saying *I* always believe in the scientific method and in >rational explanations for everything in life, but Carl Sagan certainly >did, and that’s the message of his book.)

His other message was to simply think. If something is observed or thought to have happened and no rational explanation appears to exist why turn your back on rationality and seek a supernatural explanation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->: "If we can’t think for ourselves, if we’re unwilling to question >: authority, then we’re just putty in the hands of those in power. But if >: the citizens are educated and form their own opinions, then those in >: power work for us. In every country, we should be teaching our children >: the scientific method and the reasons for a Bill of Rights. With it >: comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit. >Very well put: "the scientific method… decency, humility, and >community spirit." >I would say these are exactly what is lacking in most of the posts from >mikey and John Fitzsimmons and their ilk, and what most of the other >posters in alt.support.dissociation and the other groups they are >harassing have demonstrated, in their abundant patience and goodwill.

See my comments above. Sagan is only trying to say that a well educated public with an inbuilt scepticsism will see Politicians for what thay are,  power hungry manipulators of peoples fears and the publics need to be led. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->: "In the >: demon-haunted world that we inhabit by virtue of being human, this may >: be all that stands between us and the enveloping darkness." >Then, in rejecting science, humility, and decency, are you not sending >yourself into that darkness you so fear? >You choose the darkness you suffer in.  I urge you to choose more >wisely. >  – C >– >                         Pope C the Anonymous >                          popea…@lava.net

All hail discordia, the Illuminati will rise one day and then the world will aee the power that controls them. (fnord) Cthulhu, Cthulhu, ftagn, ftagn. Dave Barlow Bring me my Broadsword   | http://www.sartar.demon.co.uk and clear understanding. | Life is too short to worry about it.  

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Question:

   I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences (good/bad/indifferent) with live support groups for people dealing with MPD/DID?  If so, could you relay your experiences here?  I am

I was in a ‘general’ t’py group so I can’t talk about groups specifically for/with multiples. The group I was in was very supportive but too general. It was supposed to be for survivors to talk about their childhood abuse but none of us would and the leader wasn’t directive enough to get us to do so. Although one or two other people dissociated in that group, I was the only multiple. interested because I think I would like to participate in one.  Is anyone  familiar with any good therapists, support groups, hospitals, whatever in CT?  I have the ‘I’m not getting anywhere in therapy’ blues.    When I relayed the blues to my doctor he simply said that he didn’t think I could find anyone else that I could trust.  Yuk, that nasty word "trust".  I am not getting anywhere in therapy,

I hope he didn’t mean what it sounds like he said!! If he really meant ‘you have to stay with me because I’m the only one who can help you’ you need to seriously consider if this person is healthy. Now, if he meant ‘you are not going to trust anyone else any more than you trust me, so if that is why you want to leave you might be in for a disappointment’ I’d agree with him. My t’pist has stopped talking about the word ‘trust’; he now talks about ‘enough trust’. He admits I may _never_ trust him, but if I trust him ‘enough’ we can work together. He also talks about ’safe enough’ as in, ‘what can I do to make this safe enough for you to do the work?’ because he and I know that the idea of safe is pretty much beyond me right now. and I don’t know what it is that I am doing wrong.  He says that I need to talk about the flashbacks and stuff.  And I do.  But he says that I have to talk about them over and over.  It doesn’t

He might be using a technique that is abit outdated. Do you know if he is getting regular education and information on what is happening with this field? My t’pist regularly talks to me about the latest techniques and seminars he’s been to. Usually we decide collectively to stick to the way we’ve been doing it, but every so often we find a new idea that we try out. It used to be thought that it was necessary to go through the traumatic event over and over to ‘desenitize’ the client to that event. There are now techniques that work very well that don’t do that. This isn’t necessary for everyone. In fact, it can be damaging for some clients. You might want to talk to him about this or check out some of the literature to think about this some more. More than anything, you are _not_ doing anything wrong!!!!!!! I firmly believe that if the client is trying and working and motivated and ’stuck’ it is because the technique isn’t working. It isn’t the client’s responsibility to modify how you heal to fit the model,it’s the model’s responsibility to be flexible enough to modify to fit how the client heals. I work with kids with learning disabilities. I never think ‘Johnny isn’t able to learn math because he doesn’t know how to’ I think ‘math is too limited because it isn’t able to be understood by Johnny. How can I modify the approach so he can understand it?’ I have a knack for teaching long division, btw. change anything though.  He doesn’t talk to the others in sessions….I can’t seem to click off.  So, they’re never dealt with.  Things are brought up one week and forgotten the next.  I don’t

This happens to me too. For whatever reason I am ‘unable’ to get out of the way of the others and let him talk to them. My last t’pist was able to though. We work around this by having me act as liaison and just pass things on. Of course it helps that my t’pist is willing to do this. As for forgetting things from session to session yep me too. What I do is write down what it is and either mail it to him right away or put it in my car so it’s there when I go to the next session. Of course this is still a problem because I still forget what it was I wanted to talk about and it’s really hard to reconstruct it from the letter (the feelings or whatever that is). understand this process.  I don’t get what is wrong with me.  I go home with the thought that I’ll focus on something which was said during the session only to find that the next day I can’t remember

I don’t understand the process either and I’m a t’pist There is something about dissociation that blocks my ability to see what is happening with my system, even though I can see it with others. There isn’t anything wrong with you because of this!!!!! ANYTHING that was said.  I am beginning to think this is futile.  I am beginning to feel like an idiot.  I am beginning to think that maybe I won’t ever be like I used to be.  I don’t have any more answers on how to deal with my diagnoses.                     Thanks for Listening

Well, if this is the criteria for idiot than most of us here are idiots I have all the same problems you are talking about. THis is just part of the dissociation. What matters is that over time I can look back and find things that have changed or improved. I have an overall sense that I am going forward even though I often have times when I feel like I’ve either stuck or wandering around in circles. As for being like you used to be. I gave up on this one awhile ago. It’s impossible and probably not as desirable as we would like to think. For example, in order to be like I used to be I would have to be more actively su*c*dal, lose time daily, have no feelings (well ok, this might still be a good idea!:), be almost completely unconnected from others on the outside, and be convinced that I am psychotic. Sure, I would also function on three hours of sleep a night, go to the health club every day, work fifty to sixty hours a week, be in two graduate programs at once, and be active in two major hobbies, as well as have high blood pressure, have serious physical problems with my shoulders, neck and back, and not notice if I have hurt the body because I can’t feel pain. I can’t have just some of these without all of them right now. What is supposed to happen (I’m taking this on fa*th from my t’pists right now:) is that eventually all the positives I listed above will come back and all the negatives won’t. I’ll also develop new positives. I’ll let you know if/when this ever happens. Rainbow Colors (Jill, who doesn’t mind the wandering in circles but doesn’t really like the feeling of beating her head against the wall:) —      I am in the process of becoming, so this space is blank.

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        I was wondering if anyone has had any experiences (good/bad/indifferent) with live support groups for people dealing with MPD/DID?  If so, could you relay your experiences here?  I am interested because I think I would like to participate in one.  Is anyone  familiar with any good therapists, support groups, hospitals, whatever in CT?  I have the ‘I’m not getting anywhere in therapy’ blues.         When I relayed the blues to my doctor he simply said that he didn’t think I could find anyone else that I could trust.  Yuk, that nasty word "trust".  I am not getting anywhere in therapy, and I don’t know what it is that I am doing wrong.  He says that I need to talk about the flashbacks and stuff.  And I do.  But he says that I have to talk about them over and over.  It doesn’t change anything though.  He doesn’t talk to the others in sessions….I can’t seem to click off.  So, they’re never dealt with.  Things are brought up one week and forgotten the next.  I don’t understand this process.  I don’t get what is wrong with me.  I go home with the thought that I’ll focus on something which was said during the session only to find that the next day I can’t remember ANYTHING that was said.  I am beginning to think this is futile.  I am beginning to feel like an idiot.  I am beginning to think that maybe I won’t ever be like I used to be.  I don’t have any more answers on how to deal with my diagnoses.                     Thanks for Listening

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I do not have much to offer because I wondered the same thing myself.  In my journey of questioning support groups vs no support groups I can to the thought that 2 people in the group and it would be too crowded.  Hee Hee But seriously, I have inquired about it but the nearest group to me was over an hour from my house.  Too far for me.  Petre:)

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The fact that you have had to reduce yourselves to name calling and empty threats indicates to me that your ability to deal with people who disagree with you is  non existant at best. Its too bad that you people have no idea how to deal with those who have different ways of dealing with the world than you do. However, the fact remains, that yours is not the only reality. In fact, yours is just one way of looking at the world. In fact, most people would dispute the fact that MPD exists at all. That is the way MOST people think. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MPD!!! YOU PEOPLE ARE FALLING VICTIM TO YOUR THERAPISTS THEORIES!!!  Do you get it????

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YOU ARE FALLING VICTIM TO YOUR OWN THEORIES!!!!  DO YOU GET IT????? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fact that you have had to reduce yourselves to name calling and empty threats indicates to me that your ability to deal with people who disagree with you is  non existant at best. Its too bad that you people have no idea how to deal with those who have different ways of dealing with the world than you do. However, the fact remains, that yours is not the only reality. In fact, yours is just one way of looking at the world. In fact, most people would dispute the fact that MPD exists at all. That is the way MOST people think. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MPD!!! YOU PEOPLE ARE FALLING VICTIM TO YOUR THERAPISTS THEORIES!!!  Do you get it????

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And again to you…..go away. You have no power here. ("Ooh, that smell of sulfur") You’re boring, and nobody’s cares about your misconceptions, and ill-thought conclusions, so adios jerk before somebody throws a bucket of water on you.   ME, and the gang

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hi mandy[or if you are cori too] this is me eloise again now this is silly without being mean ,cause you know i am not mean to you now that i have gotten to know you alittle bit,and been writing so can you tell me what do you think my diagnosis is if not mpd/d.id.? i told you about the alters that hurt my body fully not believing it to be their own and then they disapear and i am left with the aftermath of their destruction[ie 10 stiches in june from male alter] ,i told you about how during various other traumatic r*pe and other s*xu*lly ab*se incidences that were life threatening,that i personally only remeber the first few seconds and thats it,of which i am glad i cant remeber,cause when those who know do come out they are so much pain,and so messed up well then everything falls apart,and they get su*c*dal and cant be a good mother either cause they are to upset and sad you know all this i try and try and try to tell you,yes i know it sounds weird,and yes it seems inconsivable but so are the things that have happened to me/this body in totality i would not be capable of functiooning or having a life it all if it were not for dissociation,this is the whole honest truth,and as i said in that post about this all being good well this is very good for me to have to say over and over again that this stuff happened,say it talk about it hear it,and try tio break thru the dissociation i i may not want the memories or to have had any of it really happen to me, but i also know if i dont eventually accept and remember and know it ,i will also always be haunted by abusive alters, and stuff the silence and secrets are a big trade off i dont have to feel the pain and kow it but i  have to feel other pain,like fear of alters[who are really just mirror images of my father,and kenny and others] but "they" think they are real they think they are not me i am the sane one i am the one trying to get better they are the ones that are making it so difficult to be whole do you see my point i would almost rather get it over with,but i just dont know how to see if i have to hear this over and over and say it maybe everyone inside will hear it , bye bye i hope this helped you understand me love eloise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -However, the fact remains, that yours is not the only reality. In fact, yours is just one way of looking at the world. In fact, most people would dispute the fact that MPD exists at all. That is the way MOST people think. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MPD!!! YOU PEOPLE ARE FALLING VICTIM TO YOUR THERAPISTS THEORIES!!!  Do you get it????

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This has been copied to your server….it didnt require a note of explanation as to WHY its abusive, like some of my posts have. Anybody who can read can SEE why its abusive. Youre cooking your own goose, buddy. hehehe

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Yee Hah!!! I am SO proud of all of us and our troll-repellant activities!  :::safe pats on the back for everyone::: The funniest thread in the FMSF argument is the iatrogenesis effect; ironically, it’s the one to which our biofam clings the tightest.  I had been telling people about the voices for years, and have a long paper trail of probing for answers.  *I* finally broke down and told my current therp about the names and conversations that I’d hear, and together we went through a tedious process of second, third and fourth opinions with a variety of specialists, and they all, after years in and out of therps’ offices, came to the same conclusion – DID w/a host of sub-dxs and disorders. As for her getting rich off me or planting ideas, my ins doesn’t cover tpy at all, and she has me on a sliding scale of less than half her hourly rate.  We meet at least once a week, and I can’t always afford to pay her.  She writes it off as pro bono, and we have a session.  I have unlimited access to her by phone at no charge, including her home # for emergencies (s-h and the like).  In the three years that we have been working w/her, she has never been the first to mention any act of *buse or possible p*rp.  We have been lucky enough to find a therp that is a survivor herself (although single) that is interested in helping people.  Period.  And this is in the face of more *buse from my biofam (they had her investigated, threatening phone calls, etc.).   I have been to ten mediocre-to-bad therps for every one that is like the current therp, and fully believe that everyone should get other opinions, research various studies and references on the subject, and listen to their own hearts before coming to any conclusions.  But in our case, the dxs answered questions and lifted a fog of "strange behavior" that had haunted me since early childhood. *If* I am living in some societally induced delusion, so be it.  After almost 30 years of life, I have finally seen a tiny speck of hope, a key for the code that says life can be more than pain, fear and looking for reasons not to d*e. B*lss*d B*, y’all, Kate "Does this mean that I can use the carpool lane now?"

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"Personalities envy?" I’m going to be giggling about that all day long! Can’t wait ’til my s.o. gets home so I can share the laugh! Thanks R.C. you always come up with something hilarious! ME, and the gang

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The fact that you dont believe that MPD exsists shows that you dont really need to be in this newsgroup.  What difference does it make to you whether or not we believe we have MPD.  The help we get from this newsgroup is healing and we deal with our problems the best we can and we are d*mn lucky to have each other for support.  That is what this newsgroup is for.  You are right about one thing:  ours is not the only reality.  But it is our reality.  The fact that you say that MPD does not exist shows that you think yours is the only reality.  Just keep your side of the street clean, we’ll worry about ours.   Thanks, Terra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fact that you have had to reduce yourselves to name calling and empty threats indicates to me that your ability to deal with people who disagree with you is  non existant at best. Its too bad that you people have no idea how to deal with those who have different ways of dealing with the world than you do. However, the fact remains, that yours is not the only reality. In fact, yours is just one way of looking at the world. In fact, most people would dispute the fact that MPD exists at all. That is the way MOST people think. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MPD!!! YOU PEOPLE ARE FALLING VICTIM TO YOUR THERAPISTS THEORIES!!!  Do you get it????

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Mick, I have to tell you, in all safety, and safe words…..(I hope!) I’ve fallen in l*ve with your posts. They make me grin so hard, my face hurts! Keep up the good work/words! ME, and the gang

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posted and mailed Mick, I have to tell you, in all safety, and safe words…..(I hope!) I’ve fallen in l*ve with your posts. They make me grin so hard, my face hurts! Keep up the good work/words! ME, and the gang

Why, thank-you very much! I’m slightly astonified, I think, but that’s lovely! I hope it’s not terrible netiquette to quote a compliment. (Did you ever hear that ’70s song by the Australian band Skyhooks – ‘Ego is Not a Dirty Word’?) Mick (grinning from ear to ear while an interesting bass riff plays in the background of his mind). — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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pardon me, but to whom are you referring? it is good nettiquite to inform by name the person you are sending a complaint to their server. [snip] This has been copied to your server….it didnt require a note of explanation as to WHY its abusive, like some of my posts have. Anybody who can read can SEE why its abusive. Youre cooking your own goose, buddy. hehehe

Yes, I’ve noticed that b00ny makes threats and attacks without ever identifying the target…could be simple ignorance, I suppose. Surely no-one would be tricky and sleazy enough to do this just to upset everyone and make everyone paranoid and worried that we are being reported to our servers, right? I mean, that would be as mean as say, purposefully posting something extremely triggering under an innocuous header – oh, wait, sie did that already, didn’t sie? Never mind…..   I echo Ophelias’s words to you, b00ny: this is not a joke. Real people are being hurt by your actions/words. by the way. Just another voice added to the rest, asking you to cease and desist. – who-am-i — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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How great! Bass riffs, and pleasant conversation. I’d forgotten how that feels of late! And please, do keep posting. We all need the smiles! Take care, please! ME, and the gang

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posted/mailed mick said: many others here also do not have, and have *never* had t’pists.  how, then, can they ‘fall victim to’ their t’pist’s theories?

(snipped some)  And as llyra says, just how would those who are not in therapy and never have been be victims of their therapist’s theories? Please don’t answer that. My sides are already hurting too much from the laughter.

mick, i love it!  <g that’d really be true paranoia to think about a buncha t’pists sitting around thinking.."ah ha!  perhaps i can *convince* this client they are a multiple!  what fun!" (rubbing their hands together in anticipation) "and then i can make lots of money from insurance!" whee! oh sure.  i don’t think my t’pist has gotten one dime from our insurance company yet, so obviously greed is *not* the motive.  in fact, i think we are lucky that it has not been an issue.  some t’pists can’t afford to have it not be, and how many rich multiples do *YOU* know?  none, i bet. we are fortunate if we function and have incomes at all.. and to get attention?  puuleeaase! like NOJ said (loved this one, too NOJ) if i want attention..i’ll go streaking. <g immediate results, no harm done, much cheaper too! thanks mick, NOJ, and the rest of you asd-ers who can think logically in the face of an attack, and have a sense of humor, too.  wow! this is good.. jaycie — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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Question:

Apologies if this is not the right group… Could some kind person explain to me what the meaning to a lay person is of the diagnosis Disassociated Personality Disorder Not Otherwise Specified. Thank you. Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

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Apologies if this is not the right group…

        This is the right group. Could some kind person explain to me what the meaning to a lay person is of the diagnosis Disassociated Personality Disorder Not Otherwise Specified.

        It means that you fall into the humongous huge giant category of people who have a dissociative disorder *of some type*. There are a variety of dissociative disorders that seem to be too closely aligned for pshrinks to catalogue them seperately.         DDNOS is not a diagnosis that tells you anything other than just that you have a dissociativeness ( thats the first d in dd )which is causing you problems (disorder, which is the last d in dd) and that the pshrink or therp who made the diagnosis of a DD isn’t quite sure of what specific form of dd you have ( which is the nos in ddnos ).         The commonly accepted definitions of dissociative disorders and the various known attributes of said disorders and tendencies is in the asdis FAQ ( Frequently Asked Questions ) and is long and detailed and will perhaps leave you with more questions than it answers. If you give more info perhaps someone can give you more. Thank you.

        Sure. Kristin —                    Kristin Rachael Hayward                http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Nation of Jackie this account borrowed from jcash

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[...] If the FAQ is on a web site, can someone point the direction.

if you do a web search with *any* search engine for alt.support.dissociation, you will pull up about 1000 copies of the FAQ.   it comes in 4 parts, so look for all 4.  they are convienently labelled parts one, two, three, and four    :)             astri #AKA pink bunnies#                                                               `o’_*              |/(((( |/   All conditions are temporary — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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: : :Could some kind person explain to me what the meaning to a lay person :is of the diagnosis Disassociated Personality Disorder Not Otherwise :Specified. : :       It means that you fall into the humongous huge giant category of :people who have a dissociative disorder *of some type*. There are a (lots of good stuff snipped) : :       The commonly accepted definitions of dissociative disorders and the :various known attributes of said disorders and tendencies is in the :asdis FAQ ( Frequently Asked Questions ) and is long and detailed and :will perhaps leave you with more questions than it answers. If you :give more info perhaps someone can give you more. :Nation of Jackie :this account borrowed from jcash : Yes, whatever it is, I have it bad. Two weeks in Friend’s psychiartic hospital in Phiadelphia, an attempted return to work, now on disability. If the FAQ is on a web site, can someone point the direction. If not, and someone has archived it, could someone mail it to me. Otherwise I will wait for its (I assume) monthly posting as they do in other groups. Again, thanks.. Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

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: :[...] : If the FAQ is on a web site, can someone point the direction. : :if you do a web search with *any* search engine for :alt.support.dissociation, you will pull up about 1000 copies of the FAQ.   :it comes in 4 parts, so look for all 4.  they are convienently labelled :parts one, two, three, and four    :) : :            astri #AKA pink bunnies#             :                                                 `o’_* Yup, should have tried that. AZ gives me 300 references. Thanks. Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

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This post is out of order, I know.  My comment is here, the original post is in the middle, and Pope C’s most excellent response is at the end. Hi Pope C! You’ve hit this reply right on the mark!  The only thing I want to add is that usually we’re a group of people who are extremely intelligent, resourceful, adaptable and creative!  Likely to do extremely well in an academic settings, getting into RL with the issues it brings is a bit of a different story.   I wanted reply to you about what you wrote about going to therapy with your SO.  I think it’s good for both of you, and it was a good present to get. The understanding, the REAL understanding of a SO of us dissoids is very important I think.  My SO was reluctant to go to counseling with me.  MY SO’s reply was "which one of you would be going to counseling with me anyone?"  Ouch!  My SO figured that when we settled down into one, and were totally 100% firmly integrated then marital counseling might be in order. I explained to SO that HIS present behavior, attitudes, etc. have alot to do with how my therapy progresses at the moment.  I do mange to have him somewhat convinced, and have scheduled joint counseling with a husband & wife couples counseling therapists the SO and the other self went to.   I was "gone" for 18 years 10 1/2 months and that makes me mad, but as therp says "at least you have the memories" yet some are very fuzzy.  I switch, but this main part (me here) was left out of the rotation for that time. Therp says I was stuck in a dissociation.   Yeah, left out of my own life! My therp says that if I had no knowledge of the time I was gone, I would be one step below multiple.  Because I do have knowledge of the time I was gone(I recognized the RL children the other self gave birth to, yet didn’t have the bodily knowledge or experience how to drive a car), he considers me to be two steps below true multiplicity.   And my being DDNOS, I seem to be in many ways alot like you, the other parts who were not out at therapy would at least have listened to what went on, and try to apply that new knowledge to themselves when they come out. Do you know what I mean?  My therp says that I’m not that bad, but being like this isn’t too great either!   This type of DDNOS I guess isn’t so bad for a therapist that’s had experience working with full blown polyfragmented DID, but involved enough to scare off your average family therapist that’s astute enough to realize he’s got a highly dissociative person as a client.     My therp said not to go around advertising this, and not to write it down anywhere either.  Definitely not something to put down on a job resume. Just thoughts!  Nice to touch base with you again Pope C! Hope and Peace,         Crackers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation (posted/mailed) : Apologies if this is not the right group… This is definitely the place for that question. : Could some kind person explain to me what the meaning to a lay person : is of the diagnosis Disassociated Personality Disorder Not Otherwise : Specified. Hi, Kristin!   DDNOS could cover a whole range of things.  Officially DDNOS means that someone has been diagnosed as definitely having some sort of dissociation-related condition, but one which doesn’t fit into the neat pigeon-hole categories the insurance industry and psychologists have defined in the DSM-IV (Diagnostic Standards Manual, 4th edition).  Some of those other categories are Dissociative Amnesia, Dissociative Fugue (both fairly rare, I think) and one you’ll hear talked about here a lot: Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) or as my friend ceej says "DID, formerly Multiple Personality Disorder, now under *Entirely New Management*"   In theory, DDNOS is a catch-all.  There are a bunch of independent groups of symptoms listed which can trigger a DDNOS diagnosis, including a pervasive sense of unreality, or of not being a person. However… in practice, what DDNOS *most* often seems to mean is that someone has some of the indicators for DID, aka "multiple personalities", but is missing some of the key diagnostic criteria, especially memory loss or rigid barriers between "identities".   For instance, I sometimes switch into very pronouncedly different patterns of behavior, thought, and perception, especially when I’m by myself.  I may also have different parts of me talking or arguing inside my head at one time, even when it’s "me" in control or "in front" as normal.  If (for example) in my normal state I didn’t remember what I’d done when one of these other states or identities is "in front", I’d probably be classified as DID.  As I do remember what I say or do (though it’s occasionally fuzzy) and I am able to recognize that these others are part of me – I don’t feel we’re totally separated – I have an official diagnosis of DDNOS.  Lots of people here have a similar diagnosis of DDNOS on a similar basis.   It gets confusing, because once someone gets diagnosed as DID, *this* is the state they’re typically trying to work towards at first – gradually becoming able to communicate with each other inside and cooperate, being able to remember what the others do, be conscious when others are "in control" ("copresent") and be aware of each others’ thoughts ("coconscious".)  However, if someone starts with a diagnosis of DID, the psychs tend to stick with it for someone who’s progressed to this state – if you start off from this state, as I seem to have, you’re more likely to be diagnosed DDNOS.   I’m now inclined to perceive myself as simply "multiple", because it’s more descriptive, and obviates some of the confusing distinctions between DID and DDNOS.  How I experience certain things (e.g. "switching") is very similar to DID folks I’ve talked to here.   Hope this helps.   — C —                          Pope C the Anonymous        "The road to hell gets a total resurfacing…" — Jim Woodring anonymized]

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